Curse

bilateralrope · Dec 26, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Who says work has no part in enjoyment? You. Who says it's not fun? You. Who can stop playing whenever they want if they feel the game isn't fun? You. Who's opinion are all these notions based on? That's right: you.

Do you actually enjoy running the SS/LB route ?

If yes, tell me how much time you spend running it now that you have maxed both those titles. If you say none, why do you say you enjoy it if you don't go back ?

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For people like you, there's the option of getting by without grind. Yes it can be done, just as it was before these title skills even existed. Now for people like me, who believe work and enjoyment can coincide or that "work" is only such so long as the player sees it that way, the grind is there to be appreciated as just another obstacle presented by the game to be overcome.

Fair enough, except for when the PUGs exclude you for avoiding the grind you find boring. Especially for people who don't have enough playing time to do they parts they enjoy and grind up the titles.

For me I struggle to appreciate what I can see only as a way for game developers to increase how long people spend playing their game with minimal extra content. If they want to change the time people spend, all they do is alter a few numbers in the code.

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You still have 9 other sunspear skills you can use with secondary professions on your monk, and if you choose not to acknowledge that then ironically enough I do see a waste of grind.

Ok, which would be useful on a monk ?

When I want to play an offensive build, I have other characters for that. So that rules out any of the purely offensive Sunspear skills.

Never Rampage Alone gives regen, but only if I spend another skill slot on a pet.
Eternal Aura is useful mainly for its skill recharge. But thats only for Dervish skills.
Vampirism might be useful. But I can avoid aggro on myself reasonably well, so I would be better served by something that can be used on my allies.
"There's Nothing to Fear!" is useless when it only lasts 4 seconds.
Critical Agility has a useful armor boost. But with 0 in critical strikes I won't be able to keep it up, especially when I stop attacking to cast skills.

So which skill would be useful ?

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The same could be said of armor if it were the case that skill nerfs rendered all my warrior builds useless. I could either find new builds... or I could ignore that possibility and then expect a refund seeing as I invested in something that I can no longer apply exactly the way I want.

I would only consider dumping the armor if I had that character for specific builds, instead of for how the class plays in general, and if I was using a character that narrowly (such as a farming character) I don't see why I would buy it anything above the cheapest armor needed. So I don't see much time being wasted here, and you can still salvage the armor for some of the gold back. So you haven't wasted much time there.

But when a PvE skill gets nerfed then you either:
- Find something else that uses the same title track, which lessens the wastage depending on how often you use the other effects.
- Don't find anything else. Then the time you spent grinding up the title is wasted.

Under the current system when a nerf comes to the PvE skills, unless the character who had the grind can make use of another effect from the same title*, the time is wasted. With the titles being account based, people with multiple characters can still have that work being useful on other characters.

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First show me where I said "bad decision" and not "mistake". Until you stop putting words in my mouth I'm not going to waste my time showing you anything.

So if your going to nitpick words, what is the difference between a "bad decision" and a "mistake" in the context of this thread ?

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Yes, the PUGs are to blame. Rationalizing a PUG's motives doesn't change the fact that whether a person is allowed in their party is completely in their control, not the grind's. No level 16's in their party? It's arguable whether that's fair, but either way it's their fault.

Ok, I'll allow giving some blame to the PUG's. Then again they are only doing what they can to give themselves the best chance of success. It is the grind system that makes people who haven't spent the time grinding less effective. Remove the stat bonuses from the grind, then you remove the reason that PUGs exclude the low ranked players.

So since it is a combination of both the grind system and the PUGs, how can we remove all the blame from the grind system ?

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Now as to the "fair" question. A farming group in DoA who turns away a level 13 (assuming one could even get there) would be acting on the basis that the area as a whole was and is still meant for level 20 characters. Fair judgment call? Even I would probably say yes. If the same farming group turns away a rank 3 UB, would they be acting on the basis that it was meant to be played at higher ranks? No, in fact they're completely ignoring the fact that the same area predates UB itself. Even after changes since the title skills came to exist it still stands that DoA is in Nightfall, which means there's no guarantee that the player would even have ursan blessing to meet the challenge with. Is it doable without UB? It has to be. Fair to lock out anyone without it? I think not.

So do you have any better ideas about how to stop this unfairness ?

I am aware of builds that did manage to defeat the first 4 areas there before GW:EN. They made use of meteor shower, a Prophesies skill. The reason they used that build is probably because it gave them the best chance of success there. I'm not sure of the build to kill Mallyx, but I think it made use of Factions PvE only skills.

The reason they switched to Ursanway looks to be the same reason. The reason they require a specific rank is because higher ranks give higher chance of success, and there are enough people >= to that rank to reliably form groups with the restriction.

So because the people in the PUGs want the best chance of success, they go for whichever build they think gives them the best chance. Before GW:EN this was a build that required people to own Prophesies. When GW:EN came along and PUGs realised that Ursanway gives a better chance of success, they switched to it. If Ursan Blessing gets nerfed enough to be useless, I'd expect the PUGs to switch to something else.

Those reason is just a guess, but if you want to say I'm wrong you will need to come up with a better reason.

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What this shows is that things like level progression and decent skillbars are just a fact of playing through PvE, while grinding titles is an issue Anet has very clearly and very deliberately left as something that PvE can be accomplished entirely without. It seems to me that accepting that simple fact is in any player's best interests, since when you realize how little grinding actually gets you in PvE (less effort needed in certain areas at the cost of so many hours of "work") you'll be happier for not thinking you have to spend so much time doing it.

Except that because of the PUG mentality, some areas become difficult to even get groups for. So while it may theoretically doable, how do you go about getting enough people to make the attempt ?

Lady Raenef · Dec 26, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Just remember. This do not meant to get titles at level 1.

That can be fixed in many ways:
1.) First of all, at least one character has to max the title. That's Obvious.
2.) Then, that character has to beat the campaign, to unlock hard mode.
3.) For 'core' titles(like wisdom), any campaign would do. They could also need the realms of the gods beaten, or a minimun PvP experience (like getting rank 1 in every PvP title).
4.) Then his grind titles become the 'account based versions'.
5.) Other characters will have their separate title tracks until they qualify to share the account based versions too.
6.) Once a character qualify to share the title with the other characters, his points vanish and uses the account version instead.

That way, characters that play with one character will have much higher points in their grind titles (they keep counting after reaching the max)

Then, for the second character to qualify, we can put one or more of this prerequisites.
1.) Reach level 20.
1.a) And have 200 attribute points.
1.b) And being ascended.

2.) Beat the the campaign of the title, or the core realsm or some PvP experience (just like before).

3.) Reach at least a certain track of the title. (LB4, Sunspear 8, Norn 6, Wisdom 1, etc)
3.a.) That could depend on how many characters have maxed the title in the account. One character maxes ligtbringer, no effect. 2 max lightbringer, you get the account version when reaching level 7. 4 max lightbringer, reach rank 6, and so on.

REMEMBER:
- It's NOT "level 1 characters get easily the titles".
- It's "being able to play fluently with all 10 characters using PvE skills without being halted to much by grinding".

Or do absolutely nothing and Anet saves time to find things more important to deal with.

John Panda · Dec 26, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

/not signed too all titles

/signed to wisdom and treasure hunter

BlackSephir · Dec 27, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

Or do absolutely nothing and Anet saves time to find things more important to deal with.

Like what? ;d Launching Wintersday event?
I'd love to see what are these 'more important things', mini-pets? Skill balance? oh wait ;d

Icey · Jan 10, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I was thinking about this very topic myself after having 6 characters maxed right before eye of north..now I am having a hard time deciding which character to continue maxing titles on while ditching the others....

cerb · Jan 11, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Soooooo /signed. That OR make the titles easier to achieve. But then that would upset the players who spent a lot of time getting them. So yeah, /signed

Master Sword Keeper · Jan 11, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

So a lvl 10 char, (pre req for entering EoTN Now)

With a maxed out Norn title can instantly have the health up'g from the story teller and max norn armour and weapons?

*sigh

OKay what about a R8 LB on a Lvl 2 char. "pick me!" I have R8 LB and im level 2!

Anyone else even seeing issues here?

I say again /notsigned and go home.

bilateralrope · Jan 11, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Sword Keeper

So a lvl 10 char, (pre req for entering EoTN Now)

With a maxed out Norn title can instantly have the health up'g from the story teller and max norn armour and weapons?

*sigh

OKay what about a R8 LB on a Lvl 2 char. "pick me!" I have R8 LB and im level 2!

Anyone else even seeing issues here?

For the Norn title, I don't see any issues coming from making your potential allies stronger. And even if I did, I can't see how they would matter because I never party with anyone of a lower level than the henchmen.

As for LB, show me how a level 2 character can reach both areas where they face LB effected enemies. Not to mention that they would still have to reach Chantry of Secrets to get any effect from the title.

So what issues were you thinking of ?

Elisabet Ramsey · Jan 12, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

/signed
love the idea and would get me back into title farming again..

MithranArkanere · Jan 12, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

It's true... Active tittle effects do not activate until you reach certain areas...

On top of that, to get Hero Skills a character would need to use either it's own skill points or being able to acquire its own hero skill points...

Hm... so I think that at least some ranks should be earned before getting the account-wide value.

By the time you reach the chantry of secrets, you should be rank 7 sunspear (Or even more) so that could be an example.

Earn some ranks, and after getting rank X, the character is givven the 'account-wide' version.

That way would be absolutely impossible for a leve 1 to get the titles just right away.

Rank 3..8 for the Gwen titles
Rank 1..4 for the Lightbringer.
Rank 7..8 for the Sunspear.
Rank 1..3 for the Wisdom title.
Rank 1 for the Drunkard/Sweet tooth titles.
Etc.

No more 'level 1 right away'.

Sethellington · Jan 26, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

/signed

very logical argument.

The Little Viking · Jan 26, 2008, 11:22 AM // 11:22

/not signed

I have a mesmer in pre. lvl 5 at the moment. been there for a year. I have a necro with the title "I have many leather bound books". Worked long and hard to reach that point too. Now your saying make it account wide and up the numbers? I dont think so. For 1, how many of you out there would lose that much saught after title and are willing to lose it because all the sudden you need 100,000 more LB points? not me, thank you very much.
As for my mesmer in pre...she has yet to deserve to wear the title my necro has earned.
I will agree with the wisdom, treasure hunter, sweet tooth and drunkard titles to be account based, as long as I still get my 58% chance of not breaking lockpicks in easy mode on my necro. If that number would drop, forget it. 46% on all other charicters at the moment except of course pre mesmer.

And even if they did combine all the points earned on all charicters, I would still lose the LB and sunsprear title I have earned on my necro. Shes the only one I bothered to get maxed. All others are still at lvl 3 or below on LB, and maybe lvl 7 sunsprear.

So once again...No thank you. I hate the grind as much if not more then the next person, but im not willing to lose the titles I do have to combine them and make them all (or mostly all) account based.

TheLichMonky · Jan 26, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Why yes so every character I have can have Koabd -_-

/notsigned

MithranArkanere · Jan 26, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Again the KoaBD argument.

IT can be made so you have to reach at least a certain rank before the track becoming account, and having to max it in at least one character before, like:

- Add two tabs to the Hero panel. One for the character tiles, and another one for the account-wide.

- Character A. Works in lightbringer. His title appears in the Character list.
- Character A. Maxes Lightbringer. Character's A Sunspear becomes the account wide version of the title, and appears also in the account-wide list. The title maxed is removed from the character list.
- Character B is made. Do not have title 1. He cannot select the account-wide version (Red error message, you have to reach at least rank X with your character to be able to select this account-wide title)
- Character B reaches rank 4/8 of Lightbringer. Character B can now select the Account wide version of Lightbringer instead of its won one. Lightbringer skills use the account wide version instead of the character version, but the character can keep working on his own title rank for Hero points.
- Character B reaches 8/8 lightbringer, the title is removed from the account list and further points are added to the account wide title instead.

See? Can be made.

crazybanshee · Jan 26, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

/not signed. They did it deliberately to make people focus on one character. Most of the rep titles are ridiculously easy to max anyway (people had some gwen titles up to level 8 a week after release, and maxed less than a week after HM came out) The hall of monuments is character based, not account based. If you make that many titles account based, they might as well throw out the hom and make every title account based. At which point, why the hell play other characters anyway. You could start a level 1 character that's already maxed every title and finished everything.

Why not make LDOA and survivor account based (or at least have a 1 time transfer from one character to another), since they're mutually exclusive people going for them could finally get both. Eh, /notsigned.

Axagoth Baal · Jan 26, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

/signed

Most of the titles don't make u stronger even if u get them at the beginning of the game with a new character... You still need to reach some locations to get those skills title-based.

Mister Me · Jan 26, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

/not signed

It's good the way it is at the moment, no changes are needed...
As probably 999999 people said already, you reach such a title on 1 of your characters, not on another, another one hasn't the right to be able to show it.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 26, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

I find this idea as a very good idea, in fact I was thinking that Anet should make at least the reputation titles (ss, lb, norn, vanguard, asura, and dwarf) into accountn based titles with the same or similar ranking numberes compared to the kurz/lux titles *maybe for some, such as ss, make it 1000 less then the kurz/lux titles since low lvls need those titles to progress in the game*. I am not opposed to make the other 4 titles mentioned (treasure, wisdom, drunkard, sweet tooth) account based titles, and for wisdom and treasure, you might not have to raise the numbers, at least not much.

As for the encouragement to play few characters, it is in fact titles that are keeping me on my 3 mains instead of what I originally wanted *one character per profession*, so with that I agree.

For those argueing with the KoaBD title track, the answer is in 3 forms. 1) You must have a certain rank to show the title as account based *less likely*. 2) raise the points needed much higher, like ss/lb can be made to 500k to max instead of 50k just multiply the amount of pointed NEEDED by 1k or something, while not added to the points that are obtained *other then adding all character's points*. 3)Raise the amount of titles needed to KoaBD, while reducing the amount of ranks as well *example r1=10 maxed titles, r2=20, etc., etc.* although I would agree with my 2nd idea for how to solve the problem personally.

In short, I think this is a good idea and even the KoaBD problem can be worked out. /Signed

blade21 · Jan 26, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

/signed

great idea and i agree 100%

bilateralrope · Jan 26, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Little Viking

/not signed

I have a mesmer in pre. lvl 5 at the moment. been there for a year. I have a necro with the title "I have many leather bound books". Worked long and hard to reach that point too. Now your saying make it account wide and up the numbers? I dont think so. For 1, how many of you out there would lose that much saught after title and are willing to lose it because all the sudden you need 100,000 more LB points? not me, thank you very much.

Ok I can see that you don't like the idea of increasing the grind required for each title. What about if the titles still required the same number of points ?

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As for my mesmer in pre...she has yet to deserve to wear the title my necro has earned.

Then you can simply chose to not display the title. Just like you do with the PvP titles. Or do you have an argument to explain why a character who doesn't have max armor or all 200 attribute points deserves to wear a PvP title ?

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Originally Posted by crazybanshee

/not signed. They did it deliberately to make people focus on one character.

So why is limiting people to one or two characters a good thing ?

Personally I find that if someone has more characters, they are more flexible when helping guildmates because they can switch to whichever character the group can make the best use of.

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Most of the rep titles are ridiculously easy to max anyway (people had some gwen titles up to level 8 a week after release, and maxed less than a week after HM came out)

Some people can play guild wars for 8 hours a day easy. Other people only get a few hours a week. So the number of days isn't really relevant.

What is relevant is the number of hours of playtime they spent grinding up the titles. So how many hours are we talking per character ?

How many people have maxed the grind titles across 6 or more characters ?

Yes the grind titles are easy. In fact the titles being easy is the problem because while they are easy, they require a lot of time to max them out.

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The hall of monuments is character based, not account based. If you make that many titles account based, they might as well throw out the hom and make every title account based.

Why should some titles be made account based just because other titles are ?

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Why not make LDOA and survivor account based (or at least have a 1 time transfer from one character to another), since they're mutually exclusive people going for them could finally get both. Eh, /notsigned.

Why should your thoughts on these titles matter since they aren't the titles that this thread is asking to be changed ?